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International Initiative
Freedom for Ocalan – Peace in Kurdistan
P.O. Box 100511, D-50445 Koeln
E-Mail: info@freedom-for-ocalan.com
Url: www.freedom-for-ocalan.com
Cologne, 2 August 2002
INTERNATIONAL INITIATIVE BRIEFINGS:
An Interview with Abdullah Ocalan's lawyer,
Aysel Tugluk, by Karin Leukefeld
Situation in the prison
Miss Tugluk, you are the lawyer of Abdullah Ocalan, who is probably
the most prominent prisoner in Turkey. How would you describe the
present situation of your client?
Our client is detained on the prison island Imrali in the Sea of
Marmara. He is the only prisoner there. His only contacts there
are to his guards, which is why we call this isolation detainment.
His living conditions are quite severe. His cell is 13 m² large.
Twice a day he is allowed exercise in the prison yard which itself
is roofed so he cannot take the air there anyway. These bad conditions
as well as the particular climate of the Sea of Marmara have a negative
effect on his health. We have filed several applications for his
transfer to another prison or to have other prisoners that he trusts
to be transferred to Imrali. By now all of these applications have
been turned down under a very shallow pretext. They say health care
for him could only be provided on Imrali and that there were safety
concerns as to a transfer of other prisoners to Imrali.
How can he keep in touch with the outside world?
The only way is by means of his lawyers or his relatives. We are
permitted to visit him once a week for one hour. However, we have
to admit that these scheduled visits are called off quite often.
Then they say that a visit is not possible "due to unfavourable
weather". We think that this is an excuse which goes back to
political reasons and which they often use to restrict contacts
with our client particularly during the winter months. Sometimes
we do not see him for three or four weeks. That, of course, does
complicate our work considerably. At present we are preparing the
proceedings before the European Court of Human Rights. Therefore
we need to stay in close contact with our client.
Are there similar regulations for his relatives?
They are allowed to visit him for one hour every month. Our client
has three brothers who visit him on a regular basis. His relatives
live far away. In case a scheduled visit is cancelled it is lost
to them completely.
Do they keep a watch on the visits?
We assume this is the case. Of course, nobody is sitting there
with us, but the door is open and the guards and whoever else may
be there are sitting just outside the door. We must not take along
any notes or documents. That applies for our client as well. They
take everything from us. We may take along a pad and a pencil only.
When we leave they often confiscate our notes. They are copied every
time. Sometimes the notes are given back after copying, sometimes
only in parts, sometimes not at all. The same goes for our client
and his notes. And the plain fact that our notes are confiscated
or copied amounts to surveillance, doesn't it?
Can Mr. Ocalan stay in touch with the outside world by mail,
then?
He is given his mail only in exceptional cases while letters written
by him are not forwarded. We know of thousands of letters that have
been send to Mr. Ocalan but he has been given only twenty of them
in the last three months. Newspapers he gets with delay, sometimes
he gets seven or eight at once, sometimes none at all. The same
with books we send him. In some cases he gets them, mostly he doesn't.
We are not notified, however, if a book or newspaper is being withheld.
Does he have a radio, a TV set, is he permitted to make phone
calls?
The law, indeed, makes provisions for a radio and a TV set. He
has a radio now, a TV set has not yet been granted. He cannot make
any phone calls at all.
Are the conditions of his detainment subject to particularly
severe regulations?
Yes, but these already restrictive regulations are even aggravated
arbitrarily.
Even this special statute stipulates, that those items which are
not handed over to our client have to be stated or given back. That
is not observed. He cannot buy his own foodstuff nor may he pick
his meals in any way. Nor is there catering by a canteen despite
regulations requiring this for prisoners. It is not even possible
for him to enrich his meals with fruit or vegetables.
Repressions against his lawyers
There have been opened criminal cases against you as lawyers
of Mr. Ocalan. What are the allegations? What is the status of these
proceedings?
Yes, that is true. Cases have been opened particularly against
those lawyers who actively participate in the proceedings of our
client. They are all based on article 169 of the Turkish criminal
code, i.e. allegedly supporting a terrorist or separatist organisation.
It's all about some statements our client has made which have gone
public. These proceedings are still in the limbo. Two trials, however,
have already been completed.
And what was their outcome?
Our fellow attorney Dogan Erbas received a sentence of 3 years
and 9 months for repeating publicly some of our client's statements.
I got the same sentence. And why? During a panel discussion on women's
rights I talked about our client as "Mr. Ocalan". That
verdict is now being appealed. In three months we will have a decision.
Why are you not allowed to address your client as "Mister",
what reasons did the court give you for this decision?
The judge said, if our client were addressed as "Mister"
that would be like praising him for what he's done. I asked him
whether there was a legal basis for that? Yes, I was told, that
was covered by article 169 of the penal code.
Maybe these trials are meant to retain the population in an
unfriendly and hostile mood towards your client?
We believe so. I would like to emphasise, though, that this is
not by order of the state. Rather, there are individual groups,
which we call "circles of the shadow economy" who lived
well on the war and who are not interested in a détente.
It's no use to them. In Turkey they are also called "gangs".
You will find such people also in those media, that notedly publish
defamatory articles about us.
The abolition of the death penalty has set off a furious debate
in Turkey. Especially the ANAP and the MHP, two of the three parties
of the coalition government, are at odds with each other. What would
you say, how does the majority of the Turkish population feel? Are
they for or against the death penalty? Or do they want the death
penalty just for your client?
That cannot be answered directly. The discussion about the death
penalty proceeds in the larger context of the overall political
development, which began at the moment our client was brought to
Turkey. At his trial on Imrali he gave extensive explanations. He
talked about a solution of the "Kurdish question" within
the existing boundaries of Turkey and spoke of a "project of
a democratic republic in Turkey". The argument continues very
intensely, pervading all topics and areas. At the same time Turkey
is willing to continue its accession process to the EU. Hence Turkey
has to engage in central questions which it must comply with. Many
improvements have been adopted already. This process is very interesting,
it confronts old circles and new democratic structures. That includes
all institutions of the state. Abolishing the death penalty is no
easy matter. If this is not done, however, and if our client is
executed, that might lead to a terrible new war. In case it is abolished
many positive steps might follow: The state of emergency might be
lifted and many problems of the Kurds might get solved, peace and
safety be increased. Even the MHP wants to abolish the death penalty,
if only our client were excepted from such a decision.
Our client, however, believes it would be very dangerous to focus
only on his person in the argument about capital punishment. In
his opinion the real problem is a peaceful solution of the Kurdish
question, social, cultural, and economical rights for the Kurds,
the democratic unity of Turkey. In return safeguards must be installed.
If that is not accomplished a dire future will lie ahead of us.
In fact, if the war were to start again, both sides might not survive
that. There are many other problems attached to the death penalty.
This will affect the future of Turkey as a whole. That's why it's
so difficult.
In spite of isolation detainment and political pressure Mr.
Ocalan seems to work very hard and to take part in public debates?
With his commitment, his convictions, and his work for peace he
also protects himself from severe prison conditions. He tries to
meet the responsibilities he bears, whether he wants them or not.
His work stabilises him physically and even more so psychically.
Therefore he does not want his health condition to prevail in this
discussion. As long as the Kurds have not been granted their liberty
rights, so he says, you cannot call it peace. It is a question of
legal safeguards first, a practical realisation will have to follow
then. The development has not yet come to an end, which is why our
client is still quite hopeful that things might change for the better.
The Council of Europe's Committee Against Torture has carried
out a fact-finding mission as to Mr. Ocalan's prison conditions.
Has that affected his situation positively?
After their visit in September 2001 a report was drafted and published
in March 2002. In this report some changes have been called for.
The conditions should be facilitated with a view to our client's
isolation which aggravates his situation seriously. They suggested
that our client might be allowed to phone his lawyers, and in order
to somewhat alleviate his social circumstances other prisoners might
be transferred there. He also should be allowed TV so as to be able
to turn somewhat more towards the outside world. The Turkish authorities
haven't yet answered this report officially. Turkey is bound to
comply, though. It has signed all corresponding covenants. But there
hasn't been any change whatsoever. We filed applications in terms
of what the report suggested. These were turned down, however, under
a very thin pretext. As their main reason they always state security
concerns. The only possible change they announced was a TV set in
the future.
Which authority is responsible for these decisions, or rather,
refusals?
It's the public prosecutor's office in Bursa and the Ministry of
Justice.
Our client has addressed the Committee Against Torture personally
in order to explain how the prison conditions do have physically
and psychically a negative impact on him. We have noticed and he
does confirm that as well, that it is difficult for him to form
sentences and express himself the way he wants to because of the
long times that he cannot talk to somebody. Sometimes he forgets
things, he has lost his sense of smell. It is important for him,
however, that this is not a matter of his personal needs but a matter
of working for peace and a solution of the Kurdish question, and
to attend this process. Therefore his health is important. He has
expressed his wish to see the Committee again because the prison
administration responds quite arbitrarily to his applications. Our
client is subjected to a 24 hour surveillance which of course affects
a person's psychic condition very negatively. Everything is kept
under surveillance. It is only the responsibility he feels for his
people which keeps him going. These problems still have not been
solved and they are urgent.
Europe and new elections in Turkey
The dialogue between Europe and Turkey experiences a slowdown at
the moment. Maybe the beginning of accession talks proper would
affect your client's case positively?
For three years there has been a discussion within the political,
economical, and military elites as to how democratic changes can
be accomplished. This discussion is strongly influenced by generation-old
political concepts. Hence, of course, the solution of the Kurdish
question is made difficult. If you seriously want democratic change,
one of the central political issues, the Kurdish question, cannot
be evaded. The permanent crisis is largely a result of this unsolved
issue. As yet there is no constitutional, no structural solution.
This won't be easy anyway.
Sticking to traditional forms of politics and to benefits one has
come to appreciate poses an obstacle. This needs to be broken up
in order to achieve real progress. You need to be prepared to accept
something new. Now the debate has begun at least. The ruling coalition
government gives very clear evidence of this deadlock. On the one
hand they wanted the EU accession, on the other hand they were not
ready to admit to practical changes in order to comply with EU standards
like the Copenhagen criteria. The right of the Kurds to use their
native language in education, television, and radio still has not
been granted. But these are only minimum standards. And even these
cannot be agreed upon. So there is no progress. And the relations
with the EU have worsened during the last two years.
This means that in the case of Abdullah Ocalan neither the authorities
nor the Kurds do see him only as a person. He has become a symbol
in the course of the long-lived conflict. Every statement by or
about him bears a particular weight. If the solution of the Kurdish
question were initiated as a real, democratic process these prison
conditions could not be upheld. Conversely, there will be no change
in the Ocalan case as long as a real democratisation has not started.
Either case is closely linked to the other.
How are your working conditions in this seesaw?
We are being watched critically because of our contacts to our
client and because we try to look after his rights for him. We are
being eyed with great distrust and disapproval.
It looks like there would be new elections in Turkey this year.
Which result would you wish for with a view to the Ocalan case?
Personally, I'd like to see HADEP deliver a good result. Apart
from that there is a real need for well-founded positions on the
left in Turkey, which take a liberal approach to the problems we
have. HADEP concentrates very much on forming alliances with other
forces ready for democratic modernisation. Those being termed "left
wing" over here, aren't really prepared yet for the present
development. They have no answer to what's required to do now. The
nationalist and chauvinist forces and parties actually obstruct
any democratic process as much as they can. And there are items,
where the left and the reactionary parties will agree with each
other. They are very similar in their dogmatic thinking.
Another aspect is the importance of prominent people in Turkish
politics. And there are no prominent people who are ready to implement
the necessary political changes. People are left alone. Even the
liberal left, ANAP for example, want to change state and politics
towards more democracy without neglecting their own interests, of
course.
This camp now finds itself rather unintentionally on the left. If
they could get ready for an alliance the door for democratic change
could open quite fast. I'd like to see, of course, the reactionary
parties pushed back and stripped of their power and a progressive
alliance elected into the National Assembly,
What will the army, what will the gangs do?
Well, these "shadow structures", the gangs, they are
still strong, even if they had to take some defeats. They are still
socially deeply rooted in Turkish society. While this remains unsolved
they will be able to retain their influence. This conflict will
be decided in favour of those who mobilise more power and initiative.
Certainly, as one of the strongest institutions in the country the
army exerts much influence on political life. Without support by
the military nobody in Turkey is going to remain in power for long.
We may assume that in a certain way the army's support for DSP and
MHP has decreased considerably meanwhile. This becomes quite noticeable
during the crisis.
European Court of Human Rights
In October Abdullah Ocalan's case will be heard before the European
Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. What do you expect from this
day? Are there any signals which allow of an assessment in advance?
The October date is fairly certain. It is yet unclear, however,
if we will get a decision then.
We have the impression that there will be a decision which will
barely consider some of the basic arguments of our submission. Our
client has issued a personal statement; we have given legal reasons
for our applications; and all this shows a central role for that
"complot", in the course of which our client was brought
to Turkey. Even in the way the death penalty was handed to him.
There is nothing individual in that. These activities are directed
against an entire people. The decision of the court to suspend the
death penalty for the time being sounds positive. But they are not
going to meet a new decision. They'll repeat in principle their
statement that they are against capital punishment. But they won't
show much readiness to throw light on the complot, even if it is
hard to evade it completely.
Our client feels that there have certainly been infringements.
It is beyond dispute, that the ways of his delivery to Turkey contradicted
international law. There is a great number of international covenants
and agreements which identify this as illegal. It is also clear
which secret services were involved. That was even discussed openly
in the press. Our client believes this complex is very central.
The various parties are known, the role of the Greek government,
of the Americans, the Russians, the Israelis, Italy as well as Germany
were engaged. If none of that is going to be debated, the result
cannot be very realistic.
The European Court of Human Rights accepts only applications
concerning individual rights…
We know and our client knows. However, individual matters do reflect
matters of the society, particularly if the person in question adopts
a function in such a conflict. Then personal matters cannot be easily
separated from socio-political issues.
From a legal point of view the Kurdish question may very well be
a topic in the proceedings. After all, our client is a Kurd, too.
And he believes, that a decision in Strasbourg, whether unintentionally
or not, will place itself in the context of the complot.
What can he do if his applications are rejected, then?
Our client has the possibility to appeal to a second chamber. If
that happens, so he asserts, he will exert his right to plead his
case verbally. Then he will describe the circumstances of his illegal
delivery in detail. There are things, which he has not yet talked
about in such a way because of the prison conditions. Such a hearing
then might as well take place on Imrali. In this framework witnesses
might be summoned. After leaving Syria our client had top level
contacts to politicians, directors of secret services, etc. Each
of these individuals might be summoned then as a witness.
Finally, our client has already stated that he might bring up his
case at the newly created International Criminal Court. After all,
4,000 villages have been destroyed in this conflict and 40,000 people
have been killed. It is impossible to accuse only one side of having
done all this. There are and were two parties to this conflict.
Our client is ready, if need be, to surrender his case to the International
Criminal Court.
Note
Abdullah Ocalan and his attorneys will put forward i.a. the following
objections before the European Court for Human Rights:
· His death sentence violates the European Convention of
Human Rights
· Personal rights were repeatedly violated in the course
of the complot
· Illegal abduction, therefore everything following from
that was illegal as well
· His right to a fair trial in Turkey was violated
· Prejudgement limiting his right to defence
· Illegal military judges
· Mental torture, psychological terror, isolation detainment,
degrading treatment
Already admitted: Violation of the equality principle (art.14).
Being a political activist Abdullah Ocalan received his judgment
under particular conditions.
© 2002 International Initiative "Freedom for Abdullah
Ocalan - Peace in Kurdistan"
This interview may be copied, forwarded and posted freely, provided
the author and the above copyright line are given as well.
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